In 1974, Bill Hybels married Lynne while he was still a youth pastor. But the church's growth also took a professional and personal toll on Hybels, who had married his. So, if we are all prone to sin, how can anyone come to the faith according to your paradigm? And what does Lynne Hybels think about all of this? No one wants to think their pastor is being inappropriate, so your brain just dismisses it. What if the Elders had sent Hybels home on a sabbatical while they allowed for a truly independent investigation 5 years ago? Its never about us, but always focused on Jesus the Perfecter of our faith. I am absolutely sickened by this situation. Or, this particular post on my research blog might be of note the Pyramid of Abuse and Culpability/Complicity. I dont understand the focus by this and other commenters on when did she tell her husband. Glory to God. Im probably talking to the air, though, because hit-and-run scolds like you seldom have the courage to come back. I absolutely agree that the same exact methods are used on both ends of the spectrum. It is clear to me that God did not want this hidden any longer. @ okrapod: I believe the accusers in this case especially since you corroborate that they knew the difference in a hug and a hug. Does Bill Hybel teach future pastors how to get their IT departments to have special deals? Lydia, many have long suggested such things, but are officially scoffed at and rejected as conspiracists. Not one. How many people do you need to hurt with your judgement and accusations before it is enough? You had a bad leader, and a bunch of elders who were unwilling to accept that, and call him on it. The Old Lutheran website has a bunch of shirts and coffee mugs with the word saint on one side and sinner on the others. Thats why it cant be measured in terms of numbers, and in the case of Graham and Hybels are likely massively inflated anyway, and again, they dont get the numbers credit in any event, because its not that simple, its an enormously complex process that leads anyone to this or that place where they hear a message that the Holy Spirit uses to tip them over the fence. Not at all but this bit sums up Hybels Leadership acumen we used to make fun of in the 90s. What a biblically ignorant person you are, Brad. In April 2018, when Bill Hybels' scandal got out, John Ortberg turned on his former master . You can trust Jesus and He is your perfect role model. . Dr George Simon Jr a clinical psychologist and writes about character disorder, manipulative personalities and malignant narcissism. Give me the bellicose jerks any time. The fact that just a bunch of us posting our opinions on blogs can cause such a ruckus tells me we are touching infected nerves.. I think Bill Hybels is an intelligent man. He is loving and gracious and is you biggest fan! etc. How many times do you think it needs to be posted? Only the Lord knows, way above my paygrade to say with any certainty, but observing fruits and the lack thereof is not above my paygrade. I believe Nancy Ortberg and I also believe the other victims who have come forward. As Im reading the comments, its becoming evident that theres something horribly wrong with Willow Creek church. My husband was so proud that he got to met the Bill Hybels and was so happy that he got to talk to him and have his picture taken with Bill Hybels. And my guess is the elders dont know either. Its the whole structure of the godly pastor on stage week after week. She even volunteered in church (choir, Sunday School) and married an aspiring preacher! Is this a ruse to further that idea? https://futuristguymedia.wordpress.com/thresholds-of-evidence/. Ultimately only Willow Creek congregants can decide the fate of their church sad state of affairs with millions of dollars at stake. Theres theory, and then practise. plus Ive read very wise authors like: Don Hennessy an relationship counselor in Ireland who has worked for decades in the field of domestic abuse. My bad for not being back in touch with you. Who would believe any of it if it were not for the Ortbergs? They called people out who were lying, as well as inappropriate practices in the churches.]. (I do think that helped me collect the red flags sooner, though). This is MBA stuff. Thats the thing; note the commonality of the golden parachute disembarking in these cases. How long are you going to allow Satan to control your actions? I dont want to think poorly of John Ortberg too. @ Headless Unicorn Guy: Read Paul on Mars hill. Not out of God directly pushing the SMITE button, but that Davids actions set chains of events in action that later came around to bite back HARD. And while Hybels coached men to abide by the so-called "Billy Graham rule"never being alone with a women he was not married tohe often broke that rule, according to the Tribune. Church Discipline If it is impossible for the man to keep his hands to himself, then it is the responsibility of the women to activate their own tell-the-difference perception and act accordingly. Those of us in the pews and on staff are at fault. Thanks, Futurist Guy. why is she running alone with a man she supposedly feels uncomfortable around? This is not Christianity. You can do a lot more damage with one Suggestion in the right place than a dozen Fireballs. In a calm. Im not convinced that his view of hell can be called heresy. Willow Creek is an entertainment church and Hybels its star. Never being offended. Wailing Wall-Satanic Ritual? Whether or not one can repent after death seems to be the question when it comes to Christian universalism. Bye! I treated my childhood dog like a doll. Is it even possible that one leads to the other, as the power dynamic created by abuse is addictive? How is that not normal? Yes, the ambien thing really bugs me. Its amazing how many believers will interpret the metaphor of fruit differently, for example. Senior 501(c)3 Willow Creek management apparently did not throughly examine the extent of the personal witness/testimony/allegations at the time of presentation. They also have two children together, whose name we don't know. My assessment is that the entire leadership there at Willow Creek needs to be held accountable and the base must face this issue with appropriate consequences. Yet, the faith grew in the midst of these awful circumstances. The Spirit works, sometimes over decades, with friends and acquaintances. Ok, except that no one I know has heard of Willow Creek or Bill Hybels. Have you ever watched the news when the police pick up some guy who is a pedophile and all the neighbors say But he was so nice. I mean, it makes for good gossip too. Im not sure if Julie is a regular or not (I cant keep up), but a new Twitter account alerted me to that article as well, that is why I asked. Is that one of the reasons Student Centers/University Unions include Mall Food Courts and all the amenities of a high-end cruise ship? Im unclear about what faith journey means, but it sounds very Willow Creek. Bill Hybels and his wife, Lynne, tell about Willow Creek's beginnings, its struggles, the philosophy behind its success, and the strategies that have made it a model for church growth. Everything is about Conformity today. Kids will tell you straight up, but I kind of treat them like stray cats and let them come to me! At this same meeting, Bill was asked about his special arrangement with I.T., where his emails are permanently deleted on a frequent and regular basis. The issue with that is that its not like the secular world, in which after perps have done their time, they can make a living in their field of avocation (though in the case of fraud perpetrators and/or crimes with victims, future funds may be diverted to said victims). Maybe you were mistaken, and maybe it was just a fluke and will never happen again. Fools a lot of people and so utterly against anything Christ said. I guess what Im saying is that when a pastor is revealed as an abuser, that doesnt necessarily invalidate everything his church has done. The new letter to John Ortberg is a farce and anyone who has been a victim advocate is aware of it. Whatever it is, its wrong-headed. I also think if its true, it minimizes his and his wifes ability to legitimately point the finger at others, and the impact of their words, and that is very unfortunate. In 2018, sexual misconduct allegations had been alleged against Bill Hybels. Lydia, not sure if that is sarcasm or? : Once again, you are doing Satans work not Gods. They were taking Jesus away to be put in trial. So, does that mean the alleged improprieties, at least for them, are not #Metoo worthy offenses? To TWW regulars: I am becoming concerned that there will be a full court press by some people. Church people who want to do that with her at this point are way off base. Then Simon Peter, who had a sword, drew it and struck the high priests servant, cutting off his right ear. Look up who are semitic people. So I hugged him. If John Ortberg was a heel, I dont see how that has any bearing on the situation. Its The guy at church who wants a side hug. He spent a week capturing one of the biggest aurora borealis shows in recent years. This includes a majority Christian circle. Sexual predation is not based on *wanting to have sex. I do agree with you, however, that there is enough blame and there has been enough time and somebody should have done something long ago, if that is what you are saying. A former minister of mine would give the teenage girl side hugs, which put his hand in a place it shouldnt have been. Rob Bells questioning of Hell has earned him a spot on the heresy list. Will the clay say to the potter, What are you doing? Or the thing you are making say, He has no hands ? Isaiah 45:9. Gossip! Harvey was condemned by Hollywood while Bill received the proverbial Standing O, I had to read this twice. If someone thinks so, tell me how. Publicado por Por stardew valley creepypasta septiembre 22, 2021 tvistevgen ume flashback Por stardew valley creepypasta septiembre 22, 2021 tvistevgen ume flashback This will sound horrible to some but I never understood the overall hug culture. I now see how this happened for years, and I never saw it. Bye! Both are the same in outcome). Why wait until now?? We are to be tools in the hands of God. I refuse to answer the question How many people have you led to Christ? That question has no place in our discussions. As we said in Old School D&D about 3rd-level spells, You can do a lot more damage with one Suggestion in the right place than a dozen Fireballs.. Surrounded by sycophants, who knew better. My assessment is that the entire leadership there at Willow Creek needs to be held accountable and the base must face this issue with appropriate consequences. She, too, encountered the Ambien excuse. @ Barbara Roberts: There s more news coming out. So Im now wondering. People you work with? This is exactly what I had in mind!? Trust me, Willow Creek has nothing to do with whether I follow Jesus or not. Rob Bells questioning of Hell has earned him a spot on the heresy list. For most organizations, hard questions and analytical thinking is NOT desirable, as it will almost always challenges the official orthodoxy and might even unmask hidden agendas. But I can certainly tell when a guy does it to cop a feel. We have some good news to give to the world. @ Davis and Natasha: Wife Bill Hybels married his wife in 1974 when Bill was a youth pastor. He never fails you. @ dee: she either did or didnt inform her husband immediately 1. So just what is romance? Does it lend itself to the overall problem? I dont see this issue is white or black hats. To TWW regulars: I am becoming concerned that there will be a full court press by some people. I had the same thought about his promotion of women. As this onion is being peeled back, it really gives us an insight into life at the top tier of a megachurch. I cannot imagine the pain, the hurt. That statement should never have been sent out and hasnt been corrected to this day! The Elders reviewed none for content. A less intimidating way to do that is a diary of sorts. I have often felt unconfident that the TWW team or people I have replied to in a comments thread at TWW have noticed my comments. This is starting to sound like Pill Cosby and Harvey Weinstein. I realize that what Jodi Walle is saying John Ortberg did is not on the level of what Bill Hybels did, but it still is extremely unbecoming of a pastor of a church to use the F word or comment on the looks of other women. Hybels et al have it backwards. Nancy Ortberg remains affiliated as a board member and husband John Ortberg a prolific speaker, author and leader continues to return to be a guest speaker at Willow Creek for several years after they left Willow Creek? The Devil is destroying yet another church. It never appeared that they were the type of people that would not speak up. AFAIK they havent yet made any corrections or denials. What I count is as follows: These have what I think are some significant parallels from which to consider some larger patterns. Every dept, every spin off ministry, with line item salaries. Pew sitters paid for these seminars.. Willow Creek has run many many seminars teaching other churches how to impliment the Williow Creek model. I have said that I do not appreciate victim denigration which is inherent in her supposed expos .Enough is enough. The term for this is Simul Justus et Peccator. That is me, that is you and that is everyone else. But David and all Israel beginning at Davids own house bore the consequences of the sin. Thanks, Julie! I treated my childhood dog like a doll. If she ever blew the whistle on his evil-doing, he had prepared in advance the excuse he would give to the elders in his church: I had taken Ambien! She is the co-founder of Willow Creek Community Church, and wife to Bill Hybels the founder and former senior pastor of Willow Creek Community Church. It comes out. I cant help but see your point here. I really question what your true intentions are. It is also understandable why John and Nancy Ortbergs relationship with the Hybels took a nosedive. Just wonderin, Similarities We use cookies to ensure that we give you the best experience on our website. I read it Daily and Journal too. Fast forward to a point where a number of people are coming forward sharing *the same experience. People want to see us deal with our sin openly and humbly. If he was having problems with women when taking Ambien, why didnt he stop taking it and get help? Mahaney books. Since Hybels resigned, a few of the accusers have stated that they did not want it to come to that. Is there love afte. @ Lydia: Here are some points of summary that I wrote about why this matters: From some of the background reading on this issue, it is clear that digital documents, audio, and video can constitute relevant evidence in any of these legal actions. it takes a very long time to finally look at things as they actually are and admit Pastor is not only not a decent guy, but whether hes aware of it or not, hes likely sold out to the service of hell itself!, When someone shows you who they are believe them; the first time. Maya Angelou, https://jodiwalle.com/openlettertojohnortberg. It is incredibly sad to see. However, there is HUGH group think/peer pressure to go with the flow and do not rock the boat, by questioning things. Read Acts 4 and 5. Nothing really bad happened. Plus overtones of the old attorneys way to defend against a rape charge: Discredit the Victim making the accusation. Yep. Posted travelpro skywalk vs maxlite. Even then, she was ashamed about what happened to her, as if it was her fault. Once, while Mr. Hybels's wife, Lynne, and their children were away, the pastor took Ms. Baranowski out for dinner. It is sadly, surprisingly easy. I think Hybels and Billy Graham lost their beliefs somewhere along the way maybe they never really had them. Are you saying that God is insufficient in this situation? They are in denial. The founding couple died, and the board got rid of those naughty kids and grandkids. But eventually they will wake up to what happened and it will not be pretty when nice people realize that they have been manipulated and used. I am still looking for the benefit to Nancy or the others for speaking upat all. Everyone who is still there from the elders to the lowliest either thinks like this or doesnt dare open their mouth. Open Discussion Page. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=JUdWApwbudQ. And yes I tend to paint with a broad brush because the structures and systems involved demand it. Menu. No wonder you have no qualms about slamming the Church, the bride of Christ. There is your real problem, right there. On the surface, an extended hug may seem harmless, even though deep down it creeps you out a little. Willow Creek has run many many seminars teaching other churches how to impliment the Williow Creek model. Thank you for that comment, Lydia. It took a long time for her to get past that. Terrible, terrible thing. Betty Schmidt gave 5 specific ways the current Willow Creek elders have misquoted and misrepresented her. I dont think the view of hell is really the issue for the church leaders highlighted here. You want to know the lack of leadership moment that really stood out to me in Hybels own words? JIHAD! Its up to friends what they do. Take look at what Paul says about this immoral situation. When you read it, I think you might as well. Try as I might, I do not see that sort of response in ScriptureDo not be the disciple with the sword. Oh but us Little Folk, we, (A bit dogmatic, huh? She thanks you too. So done. Really? Theres something to these accounts. Theres much interesting reading on the Donald MacLeod thread, including this 1988 quote posted Thursday by Malcolm, from Mr James Fraser: his response failed to allay my fears that there was some truth in the allegations. (My roommate confirmed with the Tribune) When I got to the room, Bill had wine opened and waiting. Maybe they even went to the Wailing Wall and performed that satanic ritual and maybe were forever changed and lost. Other tricks of such manipulators include drawing others into guilt-causing behavior, for instance using swear words casually or tossing around jokes about blow jobs. Status? Who wants to stir that pot over something potentially ambiguous? B wrote: Dee and Deb, if you are able, can you please let Vonda know about my previous comment? They did exactly what most ministry people do. Ok, gotcha. Less excusable is the behavior of the elders after it started coming out. Ive been silently wondering the same. The answer is quite simple. 3 comments are deleted. No idea the the Bible says, Do the work of an evangelist! This morning, Nancy Ortberg posted Flawed Process, Wounded Women on her website. Willow Creek has run many many seminars teaching other churches how to impliment the Williow Creek model. Instead of turning the other cheek or choosing kindness in the midst of your disappointment, I see anger and a willingness to hurt other people. Whether anyone associated with any of his accusers is a jerk or not, I fail to see the pointunless, of course, the point is to smear whoever accuses him so that people will think twice before bringing forth any more stories. The news of the divorce came as a shock to many, as the couple had always seemed to have a strong and healthy relationship. Try finding a church now that sings traditional hymns or doesnt use projectors and worship teams. She felt even more blessed when in 1985 Mr. Hybels and his wife invited her to move into their home, where she shared family dinners and vacations. Now, if we mean that believers at Willow Creek (or outside of it) will grapple with Mr Hybels and the Elders sins in these matters as they themselves become more sanctified, I can see that perspective. I dont have to be a fan of Nancy Ortberg to take her testimony seriously. I looked it up and way down on the list it says rarely it might cause some to do things they dont remember. Most of these people have no clue they are in a thought reform situation until they get very far away from it. Its the evil person who masquerades as a good person. I do, however, see how the dastardly could try and use the physical emotional responses to size up or groom a potential victim. Nancy Ortberg remains affiliated as a board member and husband John Ortberg a prolific speaker, author and leader continues to return to be a guest speaker at Willow Creek for several years after they left Willow Creek? Bill Hybels is a legendary figure in the world of business. Gregory of Nyssa was about as Orthodox as one can get, and yet he was also about as universalist as one can get. Its hard to tell what I havent read. These are tools, and can be applied to any agenda just change the talking points. There is really not a comparison to what the two men did. No worries. Come Lord Jesus! The entire Gospel is predicated on the fact that we are sinners and that we are going to be sinners until we go home. As it says in the bible, Who are we to judge? This kind of relationship seems natural to women, but sometimes men have a hard time figuring it out. I dont think Jesus sees things the same way they do. Is Lynne Hybels Still Married To Bill Yes. Messy as it might be, this is better I think. I pity you if thats the case. It doesnt matter what they were wearing, what they were drinking, etc. 1 comment about arms I dont think that you can judge how repentant and how contrite Bill has been, based on the words that he said when he announced his retirement. Because your mind tells you this particular man YOU KNOW would never so you must be misjudging. This was mishandled. Of course not. And sadly most victims spend YEARS time trying to answer the question why they were targeted. In the meantime, Crossway is still publishing and selling C.J. They can protect the vulnerable better if they wise up. It occurred shortly after she had divorced her first husband. Yep. Mahaney books. 3) Their situation is, as Jack Nicholsons character says in the movie of the same name, As good as it gets.. Put it in context and think about such a convo. Narcissistic, abusive leaders are masterful manipulators, and even the most intelligent, cynical, questioning people can be taken under their spell without knowing it has happened. William Edward (Bill) LaBarre of Marietta passed away at his home at 1:52 AM Saturday, February 25, 2023 surrounded by his family. I believe God will welcome Bill into heaven with open arms for the positive work he has done. *Bill also admitted that the woman alleging an affair had spent many nights at the Hybels home when Lynne was out of town.* (from the Nancy Ortberg post). Excuse me? I though this was sarcasm but maybe she really was arguing that Bill should have that level of influence on anyone-let alone everyone he was bringing along. yikes! Try to respond like Jesus might and you will be let through. John & Nancy Ortberg are known to be false teachers, mis-leading the body of Christ teaching unbiblical things such as contemplative prayer which amounts to nothing other than New Age mysticism. They said they could look him in the eye and discern if he was telling the truth. This will sound horrible to some but I never understood the overall hug culture. The gospel includes that in spite of what happened God is willing to forgive and restore the sinner in relationship to God. This fact is well known to those who are around sexual abuse/misconduct situations. They also have two children together, whose name we don't know. Some will sadly never make the decision to follow Christ. Alcohol made me do it (Perry Nobel) Kick out the immoral/abusive pastors. But, years of playing the great man on stage can be a very powerful armor. And Long Prayers will be said for justification. Its been drilled into our heads and many are convinced if the perp or deceiver is confronted (even years later) they will repent. The principles are sound, thoughwell enough to be applied to anyone's marriage, especially those looking to place God in the middle. . But thats over the course of 42 years of ministry! Reminds me of Bill Gothard and how he gromms and re-grooms his victims too. As a p.s. The strength and impact of Nancy Beachs and Vonda Dyers words remain, thankfully. Electronic medical records are a good example of confidentiality in action. If interested, I posted more material, links, analysis, and some leads to Dan Brennans thoughts on anxious egalitarianism, on this article: https://futuristguy.wordpress.com/2018/04/12/some-thoughts-on-supposedly-feminist-men-who-reportedly-abuse-harass-women/. @ Law Prof: He is the founding and former senior pastor of Willow Creek Community Church in South Barrington, Illinois, one of the most attended churches in North America, with an average attendance of nearly 24,000 as of late 2018. I hope its okay to post. The fact that people post here and not just give up on the church and Christainty gives me great comfort the NT clearly warns of false profits amoung the brethern and clearly teaches we should have qualified leaders. People you work with? ) bugs me. In the last few months as this media storm has rained down confusion and . In the process, one creates division, hatred and war, both within and without the so-called Church. Anyone who says otherwise or who tries to slam someone for not telling immediately just doesnt know what theyre talking about. They are fighting for Hybels. It never ceases to amaze me that the Pew sitters continue on without ever demanding to see a detailed budget. But Moses said to the LORD, Oh, my Lord, I am not eloquent, either in the past or since you have spoken to your servant, but I am slow of speech and of tongue. 11 Then the LORD said to him, Who has made mans mouth? If/when he does come forward to confess and repent of past bad behavior, he and Willow Creek elders will no longer be viewed as honest and credible among the remaining members. Fact is, mind control has been extensively researched, and is helpful in nearly any institution, be it a corporation, university, athletic team, military unit or, yes, church. Salvation: in the ned this in the hands of the One with the higher Pay Grade. I would have probably rolled my eyes at Vonda on stage in 2003 because I despised the commercial entertainment mega world by then. 40 years of it. Did we demand transparency? To fellowship with other believers? These things dont work without followers and their money. But, I seriously doubt your using scripture as a club will shame, convince or condemn many here. Invited women to their hotel rooms Hybels has barely spoken anything about his married life and rarely has appeared in the media with his wife. 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